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@Dominic

Myself, @matt @mixmix and @mikey are aboard Cleo (my boat) and currently sailing along the western coast of Great Barrier Island (Aotea) we were just visited by dolphins and I'm making a soup from the remains of the fish we caught the other day. Taking this chance to scuttle some messages but we will add to this!

@cel
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@mikey
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@noffle
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@nonlinear
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@andrestaltz
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@arj
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@ike
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@Iain Kurkporkchop
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@Olavi
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@Mischa
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@mikey

dolphins! (have a much better video, but not enough internets to upload meow)

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team butt scuttles!

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through the quiet bay entry... :wave:

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@dangerousbeans
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@bob
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@bob

Surely one of the special things in sailing is that it obliges us to cooperate, to work with, whatever the elements hand us.
In a world where humility seems sometimes nowhere to be found, that 'thinks' the answer to everything is to alter it to suit ourselves...maybe we need more.......... sailing......

@nichoth
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@mikey

adventure begins!

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@matt and i while we leave Auckland harbor

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scuttle butz, scuttle scuttle scuttle butz

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anchoring next to Santa Paz (@Lucas and family) and Festina Lente (@dangerousbeans and @vtduncan) at Waiheke Island

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passing by Festina Lente on the way to Great Barrier Island

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@mikey

up and down the waves, always at sea

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at the one pub on Great Barrier Island, with Tangaroa (@c3 and Robin), missing Festina Lente who showed up just after this photo

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@mikey

#new-zealand #ssbc #offgrid #traveling

@bob

@Dominic et al. I have a question.
It is not intended to be offensive, mischievous or contentious, so I hope it does not appear so:

Is the boat you sail upon 'she'?
And if so, why? (Okay, so 2 questions)

I have my own thoughts.........

@ev
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@Piet
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@mikey

@bob: @Dominic isn't really in the habit of anthropomorphizing the boat. he says you can call CLEO whatever you want. why do you ask? what are your thoughts?

@bob

@Dominic et al. I asked because it seems to be a long tradition in English to refer to boats as 'she': specifically, but not exclusively, ocean-going sailing ships.
My thoughts are that it reflects the relationship between the men (and it would have been almost always men) and the ships they sailed. Something about the interdependence, the caring for the ship, the working of her, which is also like serving her, but also the dependence on her to carry them safely home. This in the context of the square riggers, when men were gone for years and often did not come back.
I think there is something more than, and different to, simple anthropomorphism here.
I know of no other artifact that has been so gendered over the years.
It would be interesting to know how universal (or not) this is?
@kas how does this work in the Scandinavian countries...more great sailors.....

@mikey

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@kas

how does this work in the Scandinavian countries...more great sailors.....

I can only speak for Denmark (but I assume that it goes for the other Scandinavian counties, too), but… Boats and ships are generally referred to as ‘she’, except by landlubbers like me who would just say ‘it’ (seriously, I can't refer to an inanimate thing as if it were a person).

@Xavier Via

I can corroborate this is also true in Spanish. And I subscribe to the idea that it reflects the relationship between the sailors and the ship.

Something similar happens with the "sea". In Spanish, the sea is a "he" until you start using poetic language, and then it switches genders.

@Miikka
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@mycognosist
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@kas
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@Dominic

@bob normally sailing is passed down father to son, but for me, I just went out and decided to learn to sail one day, so some traditions may be cut short. I do try to follow the traditions (that I like) though. In polynesia, the waka is a "he", also, in kiwi english you can say "she'll be right" where "she" is just the situation in general? I heard that english used to have much more gendered terms, but lost that at some point. In french everything is either male or female. A moustash is female, for example.

@interfect
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@Emile

@kas are boats "en," "et" or an "ei" word in scandi languages?

"le bateau" på Fransk…

@kas

@Emile,

It's both, sort of. In Danish we say “en båd” (“a boat”, common gender) but “et skib” (“a ship”, neuter). Similarly, in Norwegian (ein båt, eit skip) and Swedish (en båt, ett skepp). It could be more complicated in Icelandic and Faroese, I hardly know any words in those languages.

@sam
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@sam

the German words for boat, ship, yacht, ketch, barge & cutter are das Boot, das Schiff (both neuter), die Jacht, die Ketsch (feminine), der Kahn, der Kutter (masculine).

As English speakers we often get hung up on the 'genders' of things in indo-european languages, but it's important to realise that the word 'gender' shouldn't be taken too seriously in this context and also, it's not the thing which has the 'gender' but rather the word.
So in German, most words with -e endings will be feminine, even if it's a masculine thing, words ending in -ung or a noun formed from a verb will be masculine, diminutive endings -chen & -lein (like Mädchen - 'girl') will be neuter, as will most loan words from other languages, etc. In most cases a masculine or feminine association for a noun has little bearing on the gender of that word.

But yes, also in German culture the name of a boat is generally feminine - 'die Cleo' and it would be referred to as a 'she'.

btw, on the topic of gender at sea, the history of women in piracy and the Chinese pirate Ching Shih is well worth reading!

@sam

note when I say 'as English speakers' I don't mean to suggest that other people in this conversation are all native English speakers, that's clearly not the case - I meant it more generally - for those of us who grew up monolingual and were only exposed to foreign languages much later, we get confused about this kind of thing!

@Dominic

Sometimes a boat gets a "male" name, such as the Ted Ashby but it's still a she.

We made it back most of the way to the city (made it to rakino island after being becalmed) and I caught a barracuda on trolling lure (which we ate, was delicious!)

@Xavier Via

@cameralibre exactly. In Spanish is also as you point out, every word is grammatically gendered, but that has no bearing on every thing being gendered or not. All nouns have "el" or "la" in front it, but it does not mean we interpret them as being male or female. It’s just a meaningless convention, but can nonetheless cause confusion.

Fun fact: one of the challenges of learning German or Swedish or any germanic language as a Spanish speaker is to relearn all the grammatical genders, because they do not much up, at all. In German the temptation is to always use das to try to fail as little as possible. In contrast, Italian and French grammatical genders much up significantly with Spanish, and the few exceptions are easy to remember since they stand out so much.

@miked
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@sam

just in case any German speakers get in a rage about somebody being wrong on the scuttlenet and are currently typing a furious reply, I should quickly correct the earlier statement: -ung endings are feminine, not masculine... I got all tangled up in a grammar web there 😕

@miked

In Romanian there are 3 genders: male, female, neutral and they get applied both to nounds and adjectives/adverbs. We have a really cool trick of identifying a word what gender it is, or at least I've been taught this trick in first grade. You enumerate things like "one <something>, two <something>".

Ironically both one and two (as enumerators) have different words for different genders.
"un" - masculine one
"o" - feminine one
"doi" - masculine two
"doua" - feminine two

So the trick goes like this:

"un" baiat/ "doi" baieti. (baiat = boy). Since we used "un"/"doi" - > it means that the word we're refering to is masculine.

"o" fata/"doua" fete. (fata = girl). Here we used "o"/"doua" -> it means the word is feminine

"un" vapor/"doua" vapoare. (vapor = boat). Here we have a combination of masculine one and feminine two "un"/"doua" and this means the word is neutral.

I don't know how this contributes to the conversation but now you know some trivia about the Romanian language.

Also really hecking cool pictures, dudes! Wish I lived around there to join you! <3

@nanomonkey

There is some etymological theories that the word ship comes from the proto-germanic word skipą, which means hollowed out log. It is not too hard to see how this would be a feminine word as vessels, cups and wombs are sort of ying to the phallus yang. In Spanish, the words for skyscraper is masculine, while a pool is feminine, mountain peaks such as the Himalayas are masculine, while a home is feminine. As has been mentioned before, it's easy to see how something that you are sheltering inside, that you trust to keep you safe become surrogate mothers and therefore take on a feminine gender.

@olizilla

One for team butt scuttles

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm5UqbC4YLc

Dock of the bay by The Voltage (absolutely the best cover version of Dock of the Bay you'll find on scuttlebutt.)

@jolyon
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@Angelica
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@mmckegg
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@vtduncan
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@funwhilelost
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@mmckegg

Here's @mix, @Mikey, @dangerousbeans, @vtduncan, me and @Dominic (hiding in the middle) on the second to last night of our recent sailing adventure to Great Barrier Island.

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We lashed the Cleo and Festina Lente together to from a #scuttleflotilla then used the extra space to prepare a massive banquet that we enjoyed up on the deck!

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