@ev: you know that %FzBqBGm... is the same kind of entitled bullshit that was piled on in the github thread, right? even worse nowadays you just bark up a thread when ever you see fit. Feed deletion has nothing to do with the event-stream mess.

Even worse you claim dominic has ill intentions. He clearly outlined what needs to be done and how it can be done ITT. Butt as always you choose not only not to listen but to spin stuff into a turd that fits your story of beeing the lone wolf. There is no secret here. It's all spelled out in the open.

People reading along: please also be aware that this guy clearly has a very thin understanding of security in general: %6BWdR+h...

@ev: you know that %FzBqBGm... is the same kind of entitled bullshit that was piled on in the github thread, right? even worse nowadays you just bark up a thread when ever you see fit. Feed deletion has nothing to do with the event-stream mess.

Look, I was polite when I brought this up, there's no reason to be impolite to me. There is nothing entitled or bullshit about the fact that we are still unable to delete feeds from our local dbs after 2+ years of ssb.

Even worse you claim dominic has ill intentions. He clearly outlined what needs to be done and how it can be done ITT. Butt as always you choose not only not to listen but to spin stuff into a turd that fits your story of being the lone wolf. There is no secret here. It's all spelled out in the open.

I didn't say that dominic has ill intentions, I said that he has ignored a known vulnerability in ssb for 5 months, as you just pointed out. Dominic should fix the vulnerability instead of passing the buck off to the community, as he invented FlumeDB and he claims to know how to fix the vulnerability.

You're trying to cast me a lone wolf here, but keep in mind that I was forced out of the ssbc and I'm blockaded by the NZ based dev team and Andre Staltz for bringing up issues with the grants process, mcss, and now our ability to delete feeds from our local dbs. This isn't be 'being a lone wolf', I have been purposefully excluded for bringing up issues with the development of this project and how the developers have excluded minorities and women from the grants process.

People reading along: please also be aware that this guy clearly has a very thin understanding of security in general: %6BWdR+h...@cryptix

You and I agreed to disagree about whether or not https is a secure system. I believe that hsts supercookies are used to track people around the Internet. If you don't believe that, we still agree to disagree. If you want https, don't use ssb on my website.

First of all: How is ignoring a known vulnerability not ill intentions?

I have been purposefully excluded for bringing up issues with the development of this project and how the developers have excluded minorities and women from the grants proces

You keep spewing that toxicity that like it's obvious but very calm people tried chew it out with you for month: %FKm5Kz1... - I'm sad to see that we are still cought in goto 1 on this. Andre also made it very clear that he didn't block you for the points you raise but because your style of communication is intollarable.

If you don't believe that, we still agree to disagree.

Again, in the thread I linked to: %liNAPna... - HSTS supercookies are a total orthogonal issue to what I wanted to explain to you.

but that's what you chose do... just evade and keep talking and fighting even though everybody signaled that they rather resign and leave the table then keep going in circles.

First of all: How is ignoring a known vulnerability not ill intentions?

Good point, if you're willing to call it ill intentions than I can agree with you. I think we have no real way to defend the scuttleverse unless we have feed delete, and blocking me because I say that won't help us get closer to that goal.

You keep spewing that toxicity that like it's obvious but very calm people tried chew it out with you for month: %FKm5Kz1... - I'm sad to see that we are still cought in goto 1 on this.

Andre also made it very clear that he didn't block you for the points you raise but because your style of communication is intollarable.

Again, in the thread I linked to: %liNAPna... - HSTS supercookies are a total orthogonal issue to what I wanted to explain to you.

I'm not using https because I do not support https as a protocol, because I don't believe it to be secure. To support https is to support insecurity. We should be developing secure web protocols that don't depend on centralized authorities such as Letsencrypt and other certificate authorities.

This issue has nothing to do with being able to delete feeds, but you brought it up so I responded to you. Why are you going in circles here with me?

but that's what you chose do... just evade and keep talking and fighting even though everybody signaled that they rather resign and leave the table then keep going in circles.-@cryptix

Andre agreed with me, and then blocked me. Something about that doesn't seem right to me. This is weirdly similar to Dominic asking everyone to depend on his modules, and then taking very little responsibility when one of his modules becomes an attack vector on a codebase.

This reminds me of the ev dance around threads such as A Power Beef

@dan hassan You block me, how are you reminded of a thread when you cannot read my response?

You should keep in mind that Power Beef thread was not started by me, it was started by @Mix because I said that @johnny was correct that the grants process was poorly handled. I continue to believe that the Dfinity grants process was poorly handled, and discriminated against Johnny and gb's grants on the basis that they are both minorities, and that gb is a woman.

There would have been no harm to give them both the grants to these people and then supported their work on the project. Instead you and your gang have continued to malign and attack these people, and me for months.

What I did say, and meant to communicate in a clear and precise way is that the word "Beef" in New Yorker English is much more harsh than you guys may have perceived.

But as your blockade may have increasingly shown, you guys appear as serious as Biggie Smalls when you say the beef word.

This is a software project, it's not life and death. If criticism is actively discouraged and attacked within this community, it will become a small community of close friends who all agree with each other about everything.

@ev

I hope you don't mind the unsolicited advice, but if your real interest is finding a way to delete feeds from your database then I'd recommend making a thread(/dev diary?) about that topic without the beef. You aren't alone in wanting this feature, but feature requests full of baggage and insults aren't likely to receive much positive attention.

I'd be interested in hearing what you've tried so far, specifically:

• techniques
  • the "zero out" method with flumelog-offset
  • the "filtered pipe" method that I illustrated here
• blockers
  • which parts are confusing?
  • what needs better documentation?
  • who (other than those who have blocked you) are you asking for help from?
• code: push your attempt(s)!
• absolutely zero references to any of this beef

Dominic doesn't want to be the only person who intimately understands FlumeDB, but I think we should solve that by learning rather than trying to pressure him into writing the features/docs/etc that you want. I understand that it would be easier to have him do it, but since you've lost that opportunity I'd recommend that you focus on solving the technical problem rather than rehashing your beef.

@ev I hope you don't mind the unsolicited advice, - @Christian Bundy

I never mind unsolicited advice.

but if your real interest is finding a way to delete feeds from your database then I'd recommend making a thread(/dev diary?) about that topic without the beef. You aren't alone in wanting this feature, but feature requests full of baggage and insults aren't likely to receive much positive attention.

I believe you are referencing these two posts: %FzBqBGm... and %MEE6w3S...

If you re-read these posts, I think you will see that I did not insult anyone. If you go up farther on this thread, you will see that @cryptx referred to my issue as "is the same kind of entitled bullshit that was piled on in the github thread, right? even worse nowadays you just bark up a thread when ever you see fit."

Henri insulted my reference to an issue that I believe needs to be fixed. A simple "hey ev, cool it" would have worked, instead he used my bringing up the issue as a reason to attack my character -- again.

The beef reference above was brought on this thread by @dan hassan who is a stranger to me, but has blocked me twice. I do know that he works on a project called Dark Crystal, that I do not use. I did not reference beef, Dan Hassan referenced beef.

I also did not start the beef thread was started by @mix in an effort to "beef with me" because I agreed with johnny that the grants weren't being handled well.

The grants process was handed off to Mix, and he was the sole distributor of most of the funds. Then the grants were then passed off to Andre, who recently agreed with me and then blocked me during the same day.

It's tempting to agree with these guys because they are in power on this network, but please consider the long term effects of siding with them.

If I have written anything to insult anyone, please reference the language that I used. I don't think I've ever used insulting language at any point. Even during the mcss/css debate, it was the other devs who swore at me, not the other way around.

I'm confused as to why the blame is continually being shifted towards me, as I have never written anything insulting.

I'd be interested in hearing what you've tried so far, specifically:

• techniques
  • the "zero out" method with flumelog-offset
  • the "filtered pipe" method that I illustrated here
• blockers
  • which parts are confusing?
  • what needs better documentation?
  • who (other than those who have blocked you) are you asking for help from?
• code: push your attempt(s)!
• absolutely zero references to any of this beef

This is a good idea. I wish that I had any idea how Flume worked, and I had time to work on it. I'm very familiar with the front-end ssb stack, having built an ssb client myself, however the database stack within secure-scuttlebutt has challenged me. I think it'd be good to look at the database stack and make it more clear for everyone. The more clear ssb code is, the easier it will be for everyone to work with it.

Thank you for taking the time to learn more about Flume. I hope that your solution to remove delete feeds works and can be merged, so this issue can be solved.

Dominic doesn't want to be the only person who intimately understands FlumeDB, but I think we should solve that by learning rather than trying to pressure him into writing the features/docs/etc that you want. I understand that it would be easier to have him do it, but since you've lost that opportunity I'd recommend that you focus on solving the technical problem rather than rehashing your beef.

I'm hesitant to let Dominic off the hook here. ssb is his project, and he has a lot of power over it's direct. Even though Dominic blocks me, I still respect his authority and the work he's put into this project a lot.

I want to add one thing to this post, since it originated when I brought up feed deletion in relation to the backdoor in event-stream post.

I accept Dominic Tarr's statement on what happened with the module.

I appreciate that he eventually worked towards fixing this problem, and that he's taking steps to make sure that it doesn't happen again.

I was working as a dishwasher in a resturant, and I made the mistake of being too competent, and I got promoted to cook. This was only a 50 cents an hour pay rise, but massively more responsibility. It didn't really feel worth it. Writing a popular module like this is like that times a million, and the pay rise is zero. - @dominic

Having personally worked in a restaurant recently (as a runner and server), and now back-of-house retail, I understand how challenging it can be to get promoted (intentionally or not) out of your comfort zone.

ssb has gone farther than any of us probably imagined, and it might even go farther. With that popularity comes an added pressure that we're all adjusting to.

I realize that Dominic was unintentionally thrown into the spotlight over the last few days because of a module that he no longer wanted to maintain. No one wants to be thrown into that situation, and I hope that he's doing well under the pressure.

I hope that we can work together to make sure that the ssb community is never thrown into this situation because of unintentional, or intentional, exploitation.

Let's get feed delete implemented, and then we'll all be in a better place to defend our personal computers and pubs from abuse and malicious activity.

@ev

If I have written anything to insult anyone, please reference the language that I used.

Thanks for this -- I can't think of any specific insults so I should've reconsidered the words I used. Sorry about that.

It's tempting to agree with these guys because they are in power on this network, but please consider the long term effects of siding with them.

I don't think we're in a place where there are sides, and I'd really like to continue that. I think friction is going to be inevitable but I'm personally convinced that we can avoid slipping into either conflict or isolation.

I think it'd be good to look at the database stack and make it more clear for everyone. The more clear ssb code is, the easier it will be for everyone to work with it.

Would you be interested in doing a call sometime? I still have a lot to learn but I think it might be useful for us to compare notes and see if we can gain any insights. Admittedly most of my intuition about flume is from Mix's flume-intro repo and video (highly recommend) but I'm a little bit familiar with some of the Flume source too. We could also just do async text discussion if you'd prefer, just let me know. Maybe others would be interested in this as well?

Thanks for this -- I can't think of any specific insults so I should've reconsidered the words I used. Sorry about that. - @Christian Bundy

I don't think we're in a place where there are sides, and I'd really like to continue that. I think friction is going to be inevitable but I'm personally convinced that we can avoid slipping into either conflict or isolation. - @Christian Bundy

Yes to not taking sides. I'd prefer that everyone disagree with me when I'm wrong and agree with me when I'm right.

A little friction is inevitable during open source development, we're not always going to make the same choices all of the time. I want to work towards a simple, stable scuttlebot (or ssb-server) core that we can all depend on. I think once this is done, it'll be less important for all of the ssb contributors to be speak all of the time.

But you're right to bring up isolation. I've felt personally hurt and even condemned by being blocked by all of these ssb developers and kicked out of the ssbc. I've worked on ssb for three years in February! I've been reading @dominic's code since the original scuttlebutt, so it's kind of weird to not be able to communicate with him.

I blocked a whole bunch of people on Google+ for critiquing my work, so I can imagine what it's like to be on the blocker side of things. It turns out when you block people, they are still out there in the world, and they still have opinions about things.

Maybe this isn't the right place to bring it up, but this is a random thread so whatever: it'd be cool if I could get back into the ssbc, at least until feed delete is done, if not until websbot is done. After all, it is an organization with no formal structure and no leader, no one had the authority to kick me out.

We could fall back on the authority Microsoft Github here. But in the long term, isn't that undermining what we're trying to accomplish with ssb?

Regardless, I think that all of the arguing has made it clear to me that ssb works. It is censorship-resistant, and that's cool. If it wasn't working, I'd be squashed!

Would you be interested in doing a call sometime? I still have a lot to learn but I think it might be useful for us to compare notes and see if we can gain any insights. Admittedly most of my intuition about flume is from Mix's flume-intro repo and video (highly recommend) but I'm a little bit familiar with some of the Flume source too. We could also just do async text discussion if you'd prefer, just let me know. Maybe others would be interested in this as well? - @Christian Bundy

Thanks for bringing up @mix's flume-intro, I didn't realize that he'd written this, as no one's ever pointed me to it before. I've cloned it down, and I'll give the code examples a walk through after work today.

I don't personally consider myself to be very strong at database programming, so it's helpful to have documentation.

I'm def down to have a call. When is a good time for you?

@ev

it'd be cool if I could get back into the ssbc, at least until feed delete is done, if not until websbot is done

Just to be super explicit, I'd really like to collaborate on the technical stuff everyone agrees on rather than spending any time trying to resolve interpersonal conflict(s). I'm really excited to work on feed deletion and a full node working in the browser, but I really want to avoid any role as a mediator or go-between or anything like that, you know? It's totally possible that we're already on the same page on this, I just wanted to outline where my boundaries are so you have a feel for where I'm coming from.

I've cloned it down, and I'll give the code examples a walk through after work today.

Sweet, it was super helpful for me so I hope you have a similar experience. I've also started a repo with my current progress on deleting feeds from flumedb -- it's not very clean, but maybe we can iterate on it!

I'm def down to have a call. When is a good time for you?

I'm over in Portland (PST) and weekdays between 07:00 and 15:00 work best for me, but I'm happy to do something later or on the weekends depending on when you're available. Do you have Signal, or some other chat app you like?

Just to be super explicit, I'd really like to collaborate on the technical stuff everyone agrees on rather than spending any time trying to resolve interpersonal conflict(s). I'm really excited to work on feed deletion and a full node working in the browser, but I really want to avoid any role as a mediator or go-between or anything like that, you know? It's totally possible that we're already on the same page on this, I just wanted to outline where my boundaries are so you have a feel for where I'm coming from. - @Christian Bundy

Heard.

Sweet, it was super helpful for me so I hope you have a similar experience. I've also started a repo with my current progress on deleting feeds from flumedb -- it's not very clean, but maybe we can iterate on it!

Got it. I've cloned it down, and I'll take a look at the code after work today.

I'm over in Portland (PST) and weekdays between 07:00 and 15:00 work best for me, but I'm happy to do something later or on the weekends depending on when you're available. Do you have Signal, or some other chat app you like?

I'm on scat via mvd as my favorite chat app. I don't use Signal. I haven't had a phone since 2012, so probably the best way to chat is on here. I do check my email (ev@evbogue.com) and drop into IRC on occasion.

Can WebRTC work? I trend towards using talky.io for video/audio calls.

Maybe early next week? Let me check my schedule when I get done with my launch and see when I'm working next week.

I'll also be at Decentralized Chicago on December 17th, and I think they're going to be doing a video call. Maybe you can attend?

I haven't had a phone since 2012, so probably the best way to chat is on here.

Intentional decision? I'd love to hear more about that, I talked about wanting a pager a while ago but going completely phone-free sounds better. I think I might like a handheld radio though... 😉

I should probably spend more time on scat, I've been on a few times but always forget to check it again. WebRTC should work too -- I'm slowly becoming disenchanted with Epiphany so I'm back to Firefox. I think I saw a thread about that and I'm like 80% sure I'll be there, which will be cool!

I want to publically thank @Christian Bundy for making it possible to delete feeds from your flumedb.

This is a huge step in the right direction for scuttlebot, and it's awesome that he figured out how to make this feature work.

This closes in outstanding issue with scuttlebot that's been open for two+ years!

This code opens the door for more people to use ssb, as there's now a simple way to clean up data that we don't want on our computers.

re: %9sjGtq+... | @Christian Bundy

I finally have a day off work, so I watched Mix's flume-intro this morning. I must have missed the video when it came out in January, but I must have been busy getting set up in the Chicago area.

First response: I get it! I'm using flume all of the time without even knowing it when I pull ssb-query indexes into the browser.

I also grokked many of the other subjects Mix talked about in the video -- such as pull streams, muxrpc manifests, and how to set up a dedicated sbot.

Where I wish he'd gone deeper was how to create your own flume views. It's a more advanced topic, but found myself wishing he'd gone more into that. Are there any more resources available about creating your own flume views?

Maybe opening ssb-query and flumeview-reduce and paging through some code is the best approach here?

Are flumeviews just mini flumes in a folder based off a master flume?

I also see the point of why Dominic invented flume in the first place: to make it easy to get flumes into the browser. I wonder what next steps in the browser direction might be?

@ev the log is the offset.log file and is the master db in flume. All other ones are optional.

Here's a repo with some other flume stuff and showing it progressing in complexity. : https://github.com/mixmix/ssb-server-plugin-intro
Unfortunately is focuses on flumeview-reduce which I wouldn't recommend so much. It's a good starting point but I think it's also a bit of a hog. Flumeview-level (or flumeview-query, and ssb-query which are both built on flumeview-level) is the bomb.

I made some diagrams about how these things work:

• flumeview-reduce : %jD+Zl3O...
• flumeview-level : %QnST4gi...

#ssb-learning